THREAD TITLE: DR. STANGE APPEARANCES

Posted by Jesse Lee Herndon on September 20, 2000 at 04:12:36: 

Since I've done most of the Gap 2 Doctor Strange appearances already, I figured I'd give a shot at filling in his chronology following those issues. 

Dr. Strange does not appear in FF 400/2. The only person in that story who even resembles Strange is Tony Stark, who appears at the funeral of Reed, with the Iron Man armor walking behind him for appearances. 

This is a list of his "New Outfit" appearances, following the end of his 3rd volume. Most match what's already in the MCP, with a few additions. 

Uncanny X-Men #329 & 330
Thor #500 FB
Thor #500
X-Men Unlimited #12
Tales Of The Marvel Universe #1
Incredible Hulk #450/2
Silver Surfer #125 & 126
Ghost Rider V3 #77 & 78
Spider-Man Unlimited #15
Elektra #4 & 5
Spider-Man Team-up #6/2
Heroes Reborn: The Return #1 & 4 

HR:TR marked the last appearance of his Ellis/Buckingham costume. In Journey Into Mystery #513, he makes a cameo in his old outfit. The events in this story could easily take place just after HR:TR, just as long as it happens before Avengers V3 #1, since that's when Thor discovers Asgard in ruins. 

Another story published around the time of HR:TR was Sensational Spider-Man #21 & 22. Again, he's back to his old outfit. There's no real determination for when this story takes place, and since it was going on during HR:TR, it could take place following it as well. Though it's not outside the question that he may have alternated between his new and old outfits for a short time, it is a possible reference for the chronology of Dr. Strange.

	Reply
Posted by SKleefeld on September 20, 2000 at 11:01:25: 

In Reply to: Dr. Strange Appearances posted by Jesse Lee Herndon on September 20, 2000 at 04:12:36: 

Speaking of Doc Strange, I couldn't find the Dr. Strange/Dr. Doom graphic novel listed. I haven't been able to place the main story in continuity yet, but there's a flashback sequence of Dr. Doom -- after his disfiguring explosion but before he finds those Tibetan monks -- in which Dr. Strange (already a full disciple of the Ancient One, I might add) also appears. For Doom, this flashback would be after the flashback in FF #5 but before the one in FF Annual #2. 

I don't have Defenders 107 (I'll try picking this up tonight) for an absolute reference, but the Strange/Doom novel flashback clearly is after Strange's origin in Strange Tales #115 but before Marvel: The Lost Generation #1 (judging by Strange's familiarity with a near-cosmic entity like Uatu). 

Sean 

THREAD TITLE: SENTRY

Posted by SKleefeld on September 22, 2000 at 07:35:44: 

Well, it's clear to me that Sentry is going to make things insanely difficult for Russ, so here's some of my initial thoughts so far... 

In #2, Sentry meets Mr. Fantastic atop what appears to be an under-construction building near a pier. Although this is presumably Pier 4 after the inevitable damage it will incur throughout FF #36v3, Reed references in Sentry #3 that it was actually the remnants of 4 Freedoms Plaza. So it occurs sometime after FF #13v3 (4FP is still more of a structure until then.) Now, since Salvador Larroca (regular FF artist from #4v3 through #34v3) drew Susan Richards with bangs and Carlos Pacheco (regular FF artist as of #35v3) draws her without them, we are led to the conclusion that Susan Richard's appearance in Sentry occurs after Salvador's last drawing of her: FF #34v3. I might add that Mark Bagley's rendition of her in Thunderbolts #43-44 also depicts bangs, so I propose Sue's (and therefore Reed's) chronology reads as follows: 

Fantastic Four (Volume 3) 33
Fantastic Four (Volume 3) 34
Thunderbolts 43
Thunderbolts 44
Sentry 2
Sentry 3
Fantastic Four (Volume 3) 35 
Then, there's the flashback to Sentry's wedding in #2. Tony Stark is depicted as pretty much lost in booze, so it obviously occurs before he reforms. Since a) he was invited and b) he's in a tux, I have to presume it's also before he gives up being Iron Man in Iron Man #178, the April 1983 issue. Since the April 1983 issue of the FF is #253 and smack-dab in the middle of John Byrne's Negative Zone story, it's safe to assume that the wedding occurs before they leave. Since there's a nice break right after FF #250, that seems like an ideal place to put another anniversary-type event like a wedding. (I'll mention, too, that the cover for the fictional wedding issue is drawn very much in a John Byrne style.) 

Also worth noting is that the video of Reed Richards depicts him in his original uniform, meaning it was recorded before he left for the Negative Zone in FF #251. Now presumably, he recorded it right after the Void's last defeat and just before Sentry's existence was wiped from everyone's minds, which puts us after Sentry's wedding. So Reed's chronology for that area would read: 

Fantastic Four 250
Sentry 2 (Flashback) <-- Wedding
Sentry 2 (Videotape)
Sentry 3 (Videotape)
Avengers Annual 12
Of course, we've still got two regular issues, five one-shots and plenty of flashbacks to go, so Jenkins could throw all this out the window. But that's what I've come up with so far. 

Sean 

THREAD TITLE: MADELINE PRYOR/ JEAN GREY IN X-MAN SERIES
Posted by Kam Wah J1NG Fung on September 24, 2000 at 13:41:15: 

I'm wondering whether you are going to make another Jean Grey entry for the X-Man series. As it has recently been revealed that the Madeline Pryor is in fact Jean Grey who only calls herself Madeline Pryor (X-Man 69) - hence forth, you can not call her Madeline, but Jean - and in the rumor section of the site xman.comicbooks.net , Steven Grant has said that the Madeline Pryor since X-Man 5 is in fact this alternate Jean Grey. Hope this has been of use. 

J1NG 

	Reply
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 01, 2000 at 16:28:08:
 
In Reply to: Madeline Pyror/ Jean Grey in X-Man series posted by Kam Wah J1NG Fung on September 24, 2000 at 13:41:15: 

Well, I guess we'll decide once we get around to reviewing X-Man #69, but it kind of sounds like we'll be listing it under some form of Jean Grey. 

Russ

THREAD TITLE: ERIC THE RED/SHAKARI, DAVAN
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 24, 2000 at 16:58:27: 

Which Eric is this (I, II, or a IIIrd?), who appeared in CAPTAIN MARVEL v4 #2 & 3? A footnote says he previously appeared in X 41. Plot points involve him with Adam-X/X-Treme/Forsaken One. 

- StAkAr Karnak 

	Reply
Posted by Robby Brooks on September 25, 2000 at 17:46:30: 

In Reply to: Eric the Red/Shakari, Davan posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 24, 2000 at 16:58:27: 

According to the MCP this would be the first Eric the Red. It's not Cyclops (who pretended to be an Eric the Red), and it's not Magneto (the second Eric the Red according to the MCP) either. It's the Shi'ar guy. I hope this is of some help. 

		Reply
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 27, 2000 at 18:18:48: 

In Reply to: Re: Eric the Red/Shakari, Davan posted by Robby Brooks on September 25, 2000 at 17:46:30: 
Robby Brooks wrote: 

Okay. Questions:

1) If Davan Shakari was the first Eric the Red and Magneto was the second, what about Cyke? I'd guess that his pretending doesn't count. 

2) Where would DS' appearance fit in? His listing says, in part:
CHAMP 17-FB
UX 104-FB
UX 104
CX 13
UX 105
CX 13
UX 105
UX 107 

Captain Marvel v4 #2 & 3 have cover dates of January and February 1996.
 
- StAkAr Karnak 

			Reply
Posted by Jeph York on October 02, 2000 at 09:37:04: 

In Reply to: Re: Eric the Red/Shakari, Davan posted by StAkAr Karnak on September 27, 2000 at 18:18:48:
 
Those appearances should go right at the end, since all the other issues you've listed were published in the 70's. 
I actually *have* CM4 #2 and 3 ... I should go check and see if it's the same Shi'ar fellow. 

Didn't he appear in X-Men #39, too, watching Mr. Sinister on a monitor in the final panel? 

-Jeph! 

THREAD TITLE: CAPTAIN BRITAIN
Posted by Jeph York on September 25, 2000 at 23:20:26: 

I saw somebody on here recently post about the 90s Marvel UK books and whether or not they should be considered canon. Well, what about the 1970s-80s Marvel UK books?

At that time, Marvel Ltd. in Britain published many weekly comic magazines, most of which were purely reprints of American Marvels, but a few of which published some original story material. One of these magazines was Captain Britain, which essentially floundered until a young Alan Moore and Alan Davis came along and revitalized the character. Subsequent Marvel US books have referenced and canonized the events in these titles, and I have made a point of archiving the characters in these books for Russ' benefit, since he has no access to the vast majority of them.

I'm about to begin posting several major upgrades to the MCP sections dealing with Captain Britain and his retinue. British books will be added; suggestions for changes to the MCP will be made. Please feel free to discuss the issues with me, as I'd hate to think that I did all this work only to be shouting it to an uncaring room. I can back up my thought processes on all of my decisions; if you feel I have not done so please ask me to clarify myself. 

Anyway. Here are the British books I will be talking about: 

- Captain Britain, volume 1. 39 issues, 1976-1977. 
- Super Spider-Man and Captain Britain (formerly Super Spider-Man, later the Spectacular Spider-Man Weekly, several name changes in between). Issues 231-253, 1977. 
- Hulk Comic (later the Incredible Hulk Weekly). 63 issues, 1979-1980. 
- Marvel Super-Heroes (not to be confused with the other three US titles of the same name. Perhaps referred to as MSH-British, or MSH Magazine). Issues 377-388, 1981-1982. 
- The Daredevils. 11 issues, 1983. 
- The Mighty World of Marvel. Issues 7-16, 1983-1984. 
- Captain Britain (v2). 14 issues, 1985-1986. 

M/SH-Brit#377 through MWoM#13 are printed in the US as X-Men Archives featuring Captain Britain #1-7, 1995-96. 

MWoM#14 through CB2#14 are printed in the US as the Captain Britain trade paperback, 1988. 

Having stated all this, I've decided that I'm going to start by first listing CB's all-Brit chronology, then integrating it with the chronology listed on the MCP -- and pointing out changes that may need to be made along the way. 

CB's "first" appearances are in the flashbacks listed here. 

The Daredevils #1 - pg 2 - FB. Young Brian Braddock studying physics in high school. 

CB #14 - pgs 5-6 - FB. Brian spends a night out with Valerie Campbell, and tarries too long. 

The Daredevils #2 - pg 3 - FB. Less of a flashback than it is a holographic image displayed by a malevolent computer determined to drive Brian mad, this scene at least reveals -- if the first panel is to be believed as authentic -- that Brian was losing his virginity to Valerie that night. 

The Daredevils #1 - pg 3 - FB. Brian and Valerie, still in the car, are startled by the explosion at Braddock Manor that kills his parents. 

CB #1 - pgs 3-7 - FB. The beginning of CB's origin: Brian is attacked at Darkmoor and, fleeing, stumbles into the mystic circle where he will gain his powers. 

CB #2 - pgs 1-5 - FB. Part two of CB's origin, and leading into the fightscene that started CB #1. 

(Marvel Team-Up #65 tells a more "complete" version -- ie, added scenes -- of CB's origin. I'll get around to integrating it when I integrate the Marvel US titles.) 

CB #1 thru 10. More linear storytelling, now. 

CB #11 - pgs 2-3 - FB. CB thinks back on the events between CB's #10 and 11. 

CB #11 thru 18. More linear storytelling. 

CB #26 - pg 4 - FB. Captain America reveals how he and CB survived the explosion at the end of CB #18. 
(Captain Britain does *not* appear in CB #19, as is listed on the MCP. He is missing, presumed dead, the entire issue.) 

CB #20 thru 32. Linear. 

CB #33 - pgs 2-3 - FB. The director of STRIKE, the UK version of SHIELD, recalls how he brought CB's unconscious form to STRIKE HQ in the interim between CB #32 and 33. 

CB #33 thru 39. Linear, and #39 is the last issue of CB v1. 

Super Spider-Man and Captain Britain #231 thru 247, 2nd story in each (CB ran as the back-up feature in Spidey's UK mag). 

(SSM&CB #248-253 were merely a Marvel UK reprint of Marvel Team-Up #65, CB's first Marvel US appearance.) 

HC (Hulk Comic) #42 (3rd story) - pg 2 - FB. CB recalls how the plane he was on from America (where he was in M/TU #65) suffered an emergency. (CB guest-featured in the "Black Knight" feature strip in Hulk Comic, which was the 2nd feature in almost every issue -- except issue 42, where it was the 3rd feature.) 

HC #43 (2nd story) - pgs 1-2 - FB. CB recalls how he jumped from the airplane, crazed, and washed up on the shores of England for the Black Knight to find in HC #1. 

HC #1 (2) 
HC #3 thru 8 (2). 
HC #10 thru 16 (2). 
HC #20 thru 23 (2). 
HC #25 thru 30 (2). 
HC #42 (3). 
HC #43 thru 45 (2). 
HC #48 (2). 
HC #52 thru 55 (2). 
HC #57 thru 60 (2). 
M/SH-B (my designation for the British Marvel Super-Heroes magazine) #377, pg 1. 
M/SH-B #385 (the entire issues, a fill-in story, was set between panels in M/SH-B #377, pg 1. 
M/SH-B #377 thru 384. 
M/SH-B #386 thru 388. 
The Daredevils #1 thru 11. 

MWoM (Mighty World of Marvel) #7 - pgs 2-6 - FB. Meggan, incarcerated, shares stories and rumors with her cellmate about CB's doings in the outside world. Most of the stories are accurate, thus they are included here. 

MWoM #8 thru 15. 
MWoM - pg 4 - FB. CB releases Emma Collins from the Mastermind Computer's control. 
MWoM - pg 3 - FB. Less a flashback than a TV interview filmed prior to the issue, Brian Braddock discusses his mansions' renovation with the BBC. 
MWoM #16. 
CB2 (Captain Britain, volume 2) #1 and 2. 
CB2 #3 - pgs 2-3 - FB. Slaymaster reveals how he captured CB after the cliffhanger events of CB2 #2. 
CB2 #3 and 4. 
CB2 #5 - pgs 5-6 - FB. Gatecrasher reveals her conversation with CB between issues 4 and 5. 
CB2 #5, pgs 1-8. 
CB2 #6 - pg 2 - FB. CB recalls how he was tricked and replaced with an impostor between pages 8 and 9 of issue #5. 
CB2 #5, pgs 9-10. The real CB is unconscious in the background of these two pages, while the impostor steps in. 
CB2 #6 thru 9 - we follow the REAL Captain, now, as he finds himself on another world and has to fight back to his own. 
CB2 #13 - pg 1 - FB. CB tells off his sister, Betsy, and leaves the mansion for good, heading to Africa where he appears in issue #10. 
CB2 #10 thru 14. The last few issues of CB's Uk run, whereupon he is drafted into the US X-books, appearing in New Mutants Annual #2. 

Next I'll be covering how CB's US chronology, including flashbacks, can be properly integrated with his UK chronology. I'll be careful to annotate my reasoning behind each choice. If any of you have any questions, please feel free to post or e-mail me privately. 

I hope this can be of help to the MCP. 

-Jeph York
jeffrey_york@emerson.edu 

THREAD TITLE: CAPTAIN BRITAIN - INTEGRATING THE CHRONOLOGIES!
Posted by Jeph York on September 28, 2000 at 21:31:58: 

Armed with some more research about Captain Britain (everybody's faaaavorite character), I'm reasonably certain I can now integrate his US appearances with the UK list I posted a few days ago. As always, feel free to point out any mistakes I'm making -- I'll try to explain myself as clearly as I can, so Russ has less work to do in adding all this info to the MCP. 

Integrating CB's US appearances comes in two parts: integrating the actual US issues where he appears (like, Hulk #250), and integrating FLASHBACKS from US issues (like the ones in Excalibur #36). For simplicity's sake, I'm going to do them separately: actual appearances now, flashbacks in a later post (because I guarantee I'll talk enough for two in this one). 

In preparing this post, I'm assuming that people have read my previous one -- I'm going to make reference to titles and concepts I talked about there. You've been warned. ;) In addition, I'm going to mention a list of CB's US appearances -- here they are, in order of publication: 

Marvel Team-Up #65, 66 - Jan-Feb 1978
the Incredible Hulk #250 - Aug 1980
Contest of Champions #1-3 - June-Aug 1982
the Incredible Hulk #279 - Jan 1983
Rom #65, 66 - April-May 1985
Captain America #305-307 - May-July 1985
New Mutants Annual #2 - 1986 

Now then. Russ already has placed M/TU #65 and 66 into their proper place in CB's life -- between Super Spider-Man #247 and Hulk Comic #42(fb). I will note, however, that M/TU #65 contains flashbacks that greatly expand on BC's origin as viewed in CB #1-2 -- however, I'll get around to annotating those flashbacks later on.
 
Several of the following appearances, however, have logistical problems to them, based on US writers and artsits being on a totally different page than their UK counterparts. Here's a small chronology of events in CB's life; as shown in the UK books: CB leaves England for America in the above-mentioned M/TU#65, and as he returns in HC #42, he suffers a mental attack and leaps from his plane into the sea, where he washes up in Cornwall an amnesiac. He lives there undisturbed until he is found by the Black Knight and regains his memory, and the two of them then immediately begin a quest that leads them to Otherworld, home of Merlin. This adventure lasts until Hulk Comic #63, and then (after twenty months of Marvel limbo), CB is finally sent home from Otherworld -- but his costume is altered to its current uniform, and he is sent to an alternate earth -- the Captain doesn't actually make it back to HIS earth until The Daredevils #1, January 1983. 

To sum up, CB is missing from Britain from SSM&CB #247 to The Daredevils #1 -- that's November 1977 to January 1983, our time -- but that didn't stop him from appearing in several US books during that span. There's very little room to sandwich in these US appearances, but I think I can do it anyway. 

Now: based on publication dates, Incredible Hulk #250 takes place while CB is still on Otherworld (between HC #60 and Marvel Super-Heroes[Brit] #377), and the Contest of Champions series takes place while CB is in the alternate dimension [Earth-238] (M/SH[B]#386-388). However, due to the nature of the British issues being published semi-separately, they don't have as many crossovers with the US titles, and can be slid around in relation to the US issues more easily. What I mean is, although the Contest of Champions series may be locked into MCP continuity in a certain place, Hulk Comic and Marvel Super-Heroes[Brit] aren't: *they* can be moved. And Contest of Champions #1 contains a clue that may help place both itself and Hulk #250. 

When all the heroes of Earth are abducted by the Grandmaster in COC#1, Captain Britain and the Black Knight are together, both riding Valinor. CB parted ways with the Black Knight just prior to M/SH[B]#377, so COC#1 must occur sometime before that -- and during, or after, the quest the two men undertake over the course of HC #1-63.
Now, there's very little room in the Hulk Comic storyline for Contest of Champions to occur -- in fact, there's really none. But there's twenty months between the cancellation of Hulk Comic and the beginning of CB's adventure on Earth-238, and although the Captain allegedly spent all of those months on Otherworld, there's no proof one way or the other. To be kidnapped in COC#1, CB and the Knight must have been on Earth (the Grandmaster didn't pluck any other heroes from other dimensions), so it can be inferred that CB made occasional trips home to Earth during his stay on Otherworld. This would account for Hulk #250 (which is published during CB's stay on Otherworld, and yet shows him flying through the skies of England), and could account for the Contest of Champions series as well (which heavily implies that CB is on earth). I propose that CB's stay on Otherworld was even longer than the 20 months of publishing limbo imply, and that M/SH[B]#377, his next appearance, while published in September 1981, doesn't actually "occur" until September 1982, after Contest of Champions is over. All of CB's British books from that point on could be shifted up a bit in relation to their US counterparts, which will make it easier for me to link up CB's next US appearance: 

The Incredible Hulk #279. Going by publishing date, it was published January 1983 -- the same month as The Daredevils #1, the issue where CB finally makes it back to earth. However, there is no storytelling break between The Daredevils #1-4: they all take place over the course of the same day, practically, and all have cliffhanger endings. CB staggers home, the phone rings, the villain is unmasked ... there isn't an actual break for the Captain to do any travelling (to America, where he appears in the Hulk's public pardoning ceremony in Hulk#279) until between The Daredevils #4 and 5. After The Daredevils #5, another continued story arc begins, and the Captain doesn't get another story break until The Daredevils #11 -- so I submit that we slide Hulk#279 in-between Daredevils #4 and 5. 

Rom #65 (1985) is CB's next appearance, as poses the same problem that Hulk #279 did -- namely, that of CB's costume. He received a new outfit upon his departure from Otherworld (which was literally made from his old costume, destroying it in the process), and yet his Hulk and Rom appearances stubbornly have him in his old outfit. As it's impossible to backtrack his 1983/5 Hulk and Rom appearances and tie them to his last appearance on our Earth in his old outfit (COC#1, 1982), another explanation must be found besides "artist error". And I have one: he had made an extra suit (simple enough), and when the one he was wearing in Otherworld was altered, he still had the extra in his flat in London. And whenever CB travelled to America during that period, he wore the old costume, because he felt he'd be better recognized in it. (CB's extra old outfit is glimpsed again in Excalibur #9-10, validating its existence. God, I'm anal-retentive.) 

I'm not going to try to place Rom #65 and 66 into continuity right now, because the issues that come after them -- namely Captain America #305-307, present a larger continuity problem for CB that I'd like to tackle first. 

Captain America #305 and 306 feature Captain America traveling to England and helping CB battle the evil Modred, who has stolen Captain Britain's suit (his new costume, this time). (CA#307, on the other hand, features a one-page cameo of CB waving goodbye to Captain America, and does not need to be discussed here.) Anyway, over the course of the battle, Merlin becomes involved, and takes Modred away with him. Merlin is portrayed here as CB's mentor figure, which he is: he was the one who appeared to Brian Braddock the night he gained his powers in CB#1 (and M/TU#65), and he fought alongside CB and the Black Knight for a majority of the HC run.

However, Merlin the kindly old wizard of Arthurian legend was revealed in The Daredevils #1 to be a shapeshifter from Otherworld who has appeared to many on earth over the millenia. (In the original CB run, it is established that there is only one Merlin in the MU -- this man -- and all appearances of anyone claiming to be Merlin the magician, regardless of appearance, are the same man.) This otherworldly Merlin acted as something of a gamesmaster; shaping CB's life from afar to prepare him as a champion. As part of Merlin's great game, he faked his own death in Mighty World of Marvel #11 (April 1984) (in the story, he actually *did* die -- but Alan Davis decided that he had merely faked his death when he brought him back in Excalibur #47.) In any case, CB attended Merlin's funeral in MWoM#13, and was utterly surprised in Excalibur#47 to learn he was still alive -- which implies he hadn't seen hide nor hair of Merlin in between. This means that Captain America #305 and 306, which had CB and Merlin meet and greet one another, must occur before MWoM#11.

Now, England undergoes a reality warp -- the Jaspers Warp -- in MWoM#7, transforming it into a concentration-camp nightmare that doesn't get fixed until MWoM#13. Since Captain America visits a thoroughly normal Britain in CA#305-306, it follows that these issues must occur before MWoM#7 as well. 

Now, there are two possibilities here for placing the issues, one of which fits better with Merlin's chronology, and one with CB's. In The Daredevils #9, Merlin begins a metaphorical chess game with his daughter Luna, the events of which mirror reality for CB. As far as Merlin's appearances go, the game continues until he drops dead at the board in MWoM#11.

Now, at the end of The Daredevils #8, the previous issue, CB has just brought home a load of alien visitors who are sitting around his mansion, and was met at the door by a very scared Captain UK, refugee of Earth-238. This situation continued into The Daredevils #9, and while it is conceivable that there could be a break of a day or two between issues, one would assume that CB's capture by Modred and the subsequent involvement of Captain America wouldn't have gone unnoticed, even if Modred could have managed to capture CB through all the super-powered muscle in the house. This is an unlikely spot for CA#305 to be included.

So, before or after? The only two convenient break points in CB's story are the aforementioned story-break in between The Daredevils #4 and 5, and another story-break just before the Jaspers Warp, between The Daredevils #11 and MWoM#7. Seeing as we already fit a story into the Daredevils #4-5 break, and that story was published in 1983, it would be ridiculous to try to fit the 1985 CA issues into that same break; it would imply a large period of inactivity for Captain Britain that cannot be reconciled with the pace of his UK comics.

The alternative, then, is right after the final issue of The Daredevils. MWoM#7 picks up the story in such a way that months could have conceivably passed between issues; the concentration camps have become reality, and tales are swapped of the fugitive Captain Britain and his ongoing efforts to evade the law and sneak into London to free his people. The stories in CA#305-306 could fit perfectly into this gap -- the only problem is Merlin, who is playing his metaphorical chess game through all this, but since the events of the game mirror reality and vice versa, it stands to reason that if there was this gap, a slow month in reality, there would be a corresponding lull in his game -- freeing him to make an appearance as a spirit in CA #306. (And besides, as an all-powerful immortal, playing with reality like pawns on a board, he most likely can manifest in two different places at once.) 

Therefore, I propose that CA#305-307 take place in between The Daredevils #11 and MWoM#7, just before the Jaspers Warp hits Britain. 

Rom #65 and 66, then, can take place in the same gap -- both Rom #66 and CA#305 were published in the same month, and are extremely close together in Captain America's MCP chronology -- only Avengers #255 separates them. (CA#305 even has a footnote to the effect that Cap met CB very recently in Rom #65). I propose the two CB appearances take place in the same UK story gap. 

CB's final US appearance on my list, New Mutants Annual #2, follows directly from the events of his cancelled CB vol2 series. Psylocke is blinded by Slaymaster in CB2#13, and comes to grips with it in CB2#14, the series' final issue, at the same time as Brian decides to reclaim the mantle of Captain Britain, a responsibility he has been avoiding since at least issue 11. NM Annual #2 picks up with a blind Psylocke receiving bionic eyes from Mojo, and CB coming to America to mount her rescue. It is at this point that Captain Britain begins to be adopted into the X-books, and ceases to make any more UK-original comic appearances. The remainder of his chronology, barring mistakes, flows identically to the MCP's. 

I'll cover the US flashbacks (M/TU#65, Excalibur #36, 53 and Annual #2) in another post (hopefully a shorter one), but at this point it looks like CB's integrated US/UK chronology should read, in part (US issues starred*): 

...
SSM&CB #231-247
*M/TU #65, 66
HC #42 (3;fb)
HC #43 (2;fb)
HC #1, 3-8, 10-16, 20-23, 25-30 (2)
HC #42 (3)
HC #43-45, 48, 52-55, 57-60 (2)
*H2 (Incredible Hulk) #250
*COC #1-3
M/SH-B #377, 385, 377-384, 386-388
The Daredevils #1-4
*H2 #279
The Daredevils #5-11
*Rom #65
*Rom #66 (bts)
*CA #305-307
MWoM #7 (fb)
MWoM #8-15

...and so on, with NM@#2 being placed right after CB2#14, the last issue on the UK list. 

That should about do it for CB's early chronology. I hope this integration is helpful to the MCP, and that my logic is understandable and solid. Again, though, if any assumptions I have made are flawed, please feel free to jump in and let me know. I've spent waaay too much time writing this post, and I'd enjoy some feedback, negative or positive. 
I'll be covering the flashbacks in my next post ("oh dear god no!"). Don't worry; there's fewer of them. I just need to do a little more research. 

-Jeph!
jeffrey_york@emerson.edu

	Reply
Posted by John Simons on September 28, 2000 at 22:07:16: 

In Reply to: Captain Britain - integrating the chronologies! posted by Jeph York on September 28, 2000 at 21:31:58: 

: When all the heroes of Earth are abducted by the Grandmaster in COC#1, Captain Britain and the Black Knight are together, both riding Valinor. CB parted ways with the Black Knight just prior to M/SH[B]#377, so COC#1 must occur sometime before that -- and during, or after, the quest the two men undertake over the course of HC #1-63.

: Now, there's very little room in the Hulk Comic storyline for Contest of Champions to occur -- in fact, there's really none. 

Well remember, everyone on Earth was put into suspended animation during CoC, so really perhaps no more than 10 minutes of time actually passed. Is there no free ten-minute gap during Cap and the Knight's time together?

When you are trying to make sense out of continuity, you don't necessarily have to stick a comic between two other comics. Sometimes stories can actually take place in between pages or even two panels of another comic. 

I'm not sure if simplifies your work to point this out, but I thought I'd mention it. 

		Reply
Posted by Jeph York on October 02, 2000 at 10:01:47: 

In Reply to: Re: Captain Britain - integrating the chronologies! posted by John Simons on September 28, 2000 at 22:07:16: 

Well, thank you for pointing it out -- and yes, I did know that trick. And in many cases, you're right, a crossover like I described above could very well have taken place between issues or panels, in the middle of a story break. 

But there was another reason for me placing the CoC adventure during a large gap in CB's life while he was on Otherworld, instead of a small gap while he was on Earth. The reason is CB's prior US appearance, a one-panel cameo in Incredible Hulk#250. 

During the UK Hulk Comic run, Captain Britain begins the story as an amnesiac, regains his memory briefly only to die just as the group he was traveling with reaches the gates of Otherworld in HC #21. By the time he is revived, the group has crossed over into Otherworld. In the brief time between when he regains his memory and when he drops dead, I don't think there's a story break for him to return home to Britain from Cornwall (where the HC's take place) and appear in Incredible Hulk #250. I'll research this, but I don't think it's possible. 

Therefore, there must be another story break in which CB travels home -- and the 20-month publishing gap, where CB could have done *anything*, is a lot more convenient a place to put a return visit to earth rather than between the panels of issues not intended to show him slipping out. 

And since the Incredible Hulk appearance must be fit into the gap between HC#60 and M/SH-B#377, it follows that the CoC series, which comes after H2#250 in US continuity, must also fit into that gap -- since directly after that gap, CB is transported to Earth-238. 

Hope that clears things up. There's also the relative publishing dates of the stories in question, too, which helps make my decision easier. They line up a little easier the way I've organized things, which is a nice bonus. :) 

-Jeph! 

	Reply
Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 03, 2000 at 10:24:12: 

In Reply to: Captain Britain - integrating the chronologies! posted by Jeph York on September 28, 2000 at 21:31:58:
 
: Now, there's very little room in the Hulk Comic storyline for Contest of Champions to occur -- in fact, there's really none. 

I don't know about other heroes, but this is a problem for Rom as well. My original placement of COC in Rom's chronology was changed by Russ because of the placement of COC in other characters' chronologies. I really don't like the current placement of COC in Rom, but I have yet to come up with a better one that fits with the rest of the MCP. 

: Rom #65 (1985) is CB's next appearance, as poses the same problem that Hulk #279 did -- namely, that of CB's costume. He received a new outfit upon his departure from Otherworld (which was literally made from his old costume, destroying it in the process), and yet his Hulk and Rom appearances stubbornly have him in his old outfit. As it's impossible to backtrack his 1983/5 Hulk and Rom appearances and tie them to his last appearance on our Earth in his old outfit (COC#1, 1982), another explanation must be found besides "artist error". And I have one: he had made an extra suit (simple enough), and when the one he was wearing in Otherworld was altered, he still had the extra in his flat in London. And whenever CB travelled to America during that period, he wore the old costume, because he felt he'd be better recognized in it. (CB's extra old outfit is glimpsed again in Excalibur #9-10, validating its existence. God, I'm anal-retentive.) 

You gotta be to work on the MCP. 8) 

: I'm not going to try to place Rom #65 and 66 into continuity right now, because the issues that come after them -- namely Captain America #305-307, present a larger continuity problem for CB that I'd like to tackle first. 

Awww. Rom gets no respect. ;) 

THREAD TITLE: CAPTAIN MARVEL III
Posted by Paul O'Brien on September 30, 2000 at 10:41:41: 

I see the chronology for Captain Marvel III is currently showing Captain Marvel (third series) #1-5 (the last issue of his series to be indexed so far), followed by his guest appearances in Avengers (third series) #26-27. I'm not convinced that actually works. 

The glitch is that, in Avengers #26, Captain Marvel is one of the scratch team of Avengers led by the Taskmaster, who is disguised as Captain America. Since Captain Marvel has cosmic awareness, he immediately senses that something is wrong with the Captain, but Rick Jones tells him to disregard it, on the basis that his cosmic awareness has been malfunctioning lately. 

That's a reference to the subplot in the early issues of Captain Marvel, in which Marvel would attack various hallucinatory images and then get very confused when nobody else could see them. However, in Captain Marvel #4, Moondragon gives him an explanation for this (which is basically that he needs more training in his cosmic awareness). The dialogue in Avengers #26 seems to suggest that it comes before Marvel discovers this. 

Since there are no apparent gaps earlier in Marvel's series, that would seem to place Avengers #26-27 between Captain Marvel #0-1 (issue #0 being the giveaway from Wizard, in which he has his first hallucination). 

	Reply
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 01, 2000 at 16:34:48: 

In Reply to: Captain Marvel III posted by Paul O'Brien on September 30, 2000 at 10:41:41: 

Believe it or not, I'm going to have to wait until I've read Iron Man #30 before deciding how to do this. Events in Fantastic Four, New Warriors, Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America and Avengers have kind of forced my hand, but if there are no problems with Iron Man #30, I think I can afford to make your change. 

Russ

THREAD TITLE: DEADPOOL #46
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 01, 2000 at 11:28:18: 

Having just finished adding these books to my own personal indexes, I'm happy to help Russ with his missing books. I'll do a separate thread for each. 

Deadpool #46 is the really easy one, since Deadpool himself is the only character appearing who's been seen before. An assortment of minor characters turn up who aren't yet worth listing in the Chronology Project, and who can be dealt with if they turn out to be recurring characters. The most likely character to recur is one Mr Jambo, Deadpool's new Rastafarian landlord. Honest. 

No indication of the timeframe since the last issue, so presumably Deadpool's personal chronology goes more or less in publication order - ie:- 
Deadpool #45
Wolverine #154-155
X-Men Unlimited #28 (second story)
Deadpool #46

THREAD TITLE: REVENGE OF THE GREEN GOBLIN #2
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 01, 2000 at 11:44:25: 

Okay, this one is rather trickier, mainly since Spider-Man is now appearing concurrently in storylines in progress in Amazing Spider-Man, Peter Parker, Spider-Man and this book. So here's the character listing, with chronologies where obvious:- 

Feature character: Spider-Man I (see comments below) 
Supporting characters: May Parker (last in Peter Parker, Spider-Man #21) 
Villains: The Green Goblin (last in Amazing Spider-Man #23? - see comments); Donald Mencken (from issue #1) 
Other characters: Albert Bendix, Kolina Frederickson (both from issue #1) 

The question, for both Spider-Man and the Green Goblin, is where this fits into the overall chronology of the Spider-Man books. The Goblin helpfully tells us that by this time Spider-Man will have got "several days use" of the toothpaste he left at his flat in the previous issue. On the basis that Osborn can't possibly be assuming that Peter would move straight onto his new tube of toothpaste without finishing the preceding one (yes, we're chronologising by Peter Parker's toothpaste habits here), it must be at least several days and possibly a couple of weeks since the previous issue. 

The Goblin turns up in a cameo in Amazing Spider-Man #23, in which he blows up a building. Since Revenge #1 covered the Goblin's life from the Gathering of Five to the present, presumably that appearance must follow Revenge #1. But on the other hand, it could take place after this issue. Hard to say at this stage. 

We're expressly told, however, that the toothpaste is deadening Peter's spider-sense. He doesn't notice that until this issue when he nearly swings into a crane. But since the effect is in full force, presumably he hasn't been doing anything dangerous in the previous couple of days that would have set his spider-sense off. 

Now, from solicitations we know that this series will apparently lead into Amazing Spider-Man #25 and Peter Parker #25. If so, that suggests this story follows the stories currently underway in those books (both of which are Maximum Security crossovers). It's also impossible at this stage to say whether this story takes place before or after Spider-Man's guest starring appearance in Wolverine #156, which also came out this week.

Oh yeah, and the flashbacks... 

There's a couple of flashbacks to the Osborn family background, which might be new material. I wouldn't know. One in particular shows what seems to be a new scene from the courtship of Norman and Emily Osborn.

THREAD TITLE: GAMBIT #22
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 01, 2000 at 11:54:48: 

Brace yourselves, this one is going to take a while. 

Characters appearing in the main narrative:- 

Gambit (last in Uncanny X-Men #386) 
A host of supporting characters - and yes, these guys ARE all recurring characters:- 
Courier, Fontanelle, Bella Donna Boudreaux, Mercy LeBeaux, Emile Lapin, Gris Gris, Theoren Marceaux, Tante Mattie, Questa, Minister Tome and Minister Hoard (all from the previous issue) 
Claude Poitier, Singer, Genard Alouette, Fifolet and Zoe Ishihara (all last in issue #18) 
Villains: Rax (aka Jaeger II) and Domina, both last in X-Men Vol 2 #106 (well, they're no longer hanging around in Brooklyn, so presumably this is after the X-Men's Neo storyline) 
The New Sun (sic; apparently we've been spelling it wrong all this time), last seen in Gambit 2000 

But there's also some flashbacks. 

Jacques LeBeau and Jean-Luc LeBeau both appear in a flashback dated as 1923. Both were last seen in the time travel story in issue #14. Jacques makes no further appearances. Jean-Luc appears next in a flashback to World War II in issue #10. 

Jean-Luc LeBeau and Marius Boudreaux (Bella Donna's father) both appear in a flashback helpfully dated as "six years ago." From the references in the dialogue, they appear to be agreeing on the arranged marriage of Gambit and Bella Donna, which forms part of Gambit's numerous origin flashbacks, and which I'm not even going to TRY and place precisely for either character. 

Finally, the New Sun (as we're now to call him) turns up in a flashback showing him "years ago" fighting the superheroes of an alternate timeline (presumably his own world). This will be his chronologically earliest appearance, preceding whatever's currently being listed for that. 

THREAD TITLE: AMPHIBION/QNAX CORRECTION
Posted by Gary M. Miller on October 01, 2000 at 13:44:16: 

I have a correction regarding two characters who are in the chronology--who should be combined into one. 

Currently there are entries for both "Amphibion" (TTA 74/2, H2 269, H2 270) and "Qnax" (TTA 73/2, TTA 74/2, H2 472-FB, H2 471, H2 472, H2 473, H2 474), but the entries may be cross-linked by virtue of footnotes in IH2 269, which states that "Amphibion" is the same creature the Hulk bested in battle in TTA 74/2, which means he is also Qnax. Therefore, the new character's entry should probably read: 

QNAX/XANTAREAN/AMPHIBION 
TTA 73/2
TTA 74/2
H2 269
H2 270
H2 472-FB
H2 471
H2 472
H2 473
H2 474 

Also, then, entries should be added for XANTAREAN (See Qnax) and change Amphibion's entry to AMPHIBION (See Qnax). 

I'll also have entry changes for the characters of Blackbird, Jeryn Hogarth, and Steel Serpent, keep watching. 

-Gary M.

THREAD TITLE: GAMBIT VOL. 1
Posted by Bernard Assaf on October 02, 2000 at 01:01:48: 

I'm piecing together chronology entry placement for Gambit's 1st limited series. I believe I have placed correctly entries for most of the characters. It is sort of an easy task as the ongoing books during the time this series came out are not yet entered into the MCP. (Specifically, GAM1 was published the same month as A 369, XCAL 72, UX 308, C2 7, X 27, etc., and I think the next entry in the MCP is UX 311.) Also, I assume GAM1 takes place before XU 7
for reasons of publication date. 

Anyway, before I spout out the lists, I was wondering: 

1) A character by first name of Pierre, a thief in the Thieve's Guild, appears in GAM1 1-2 and 4-BTS. Does
this guy already have an entry that we know of? A last name? 

2) The series must come before W2 75 as noted in a footnote in GAM1 1. (Wolvy still has his adamantium.)
Anyway, Wolverine, Storm, Prof X make an appearance in GAM1 1, and Psylocke gets a BTS as it is noted that
why didn't she or the Prof know about the intruder (Henri Lebeau) sneaking into the mansion. I assume
this is good enough for a BTS? 

3) Pierre, this same thief, gets a BTS in GAM1 4, I think, as Julien was waiting for him, and Gambit tells Julien that he met up with Pierre and Pierre won't be making it. Is this good enough for a BTS? Of course, we might not have a listing for him. 

4) I don't know where to place GAM1 in reference to the FB-BTS appearance of Gideon in XF 79.
 
5) The hardest piece to place is a flashback scene in GAM1 3 where Rogue absorbs some memories of Bella Donna of when Gambit and Bella Donna are in love, presumably before they are married. I may need some correcting on this, as I don't have X 8. 

Anyway, here goes. GAM1 1-4 are the only new entries I list, and I believe I have placed them all correctly.
(Exception, I list an ommitted reference to JULIEN BOUDREAUX in GAM3 1-FB.) 

BOUDREAUX, BELLA DONNA
GR3 27
GAM1 2
GAM1 3
GAM1 4
X 39 

BOUDREAUX, JULIEN
GAM3 1-FB (Jean-Luc Lebeau recalls the apparent death of Julien at Gambit's hands during a dream visitation by Fontanelle)
GAM1 1 (1st app)
GAM1 2
GAM1 3
GAM1 4 

BOUDREAUX, MARIUS
GAM1 2 (1st app)
GAM1 4 
CANDRA
GAM3 14
GAM1 1
GAM1 2
GAM1 3
GAM1 4
XU 7 

GAMBIT/REMY LEBEAU
GAM3 1-FB (Gambit as newborn? Later as a youth?)
X 8-FB
GAM1 3-FB (Gambit and Bella Donna courting?)
GAM3 1-FB (Gambit getting married?)
X 8-FB
GAM 3-FB (Is this supposed to be GAM3 1-FB?)
...
(later in the chronology...)
...
X 15
XFOR 17
GAM1 1
GAM1 2
GAM1 3
GAM1 4
X 33-FB 
GIDEON
XFOR 13
XFOR 15
GAM1 1
GAM1 2
XFOR 79-FB-BTS (This one I'm not sure about. Perhaps GAM1 takes place after XFOR 79-FB-BTS. I don't have XFOR 79.)
XFOR 36 

LEBEAU, HENRI
GAM1 1 (1st and last app?) 
LEBEAU, JEAN-LUC
GAM3 1-FB-BTS (Dream sequence with Fontanelle, relives some memories when younger, c.f. JULIEN
BOUDREAUX)
GAM1 1
GAM1 2
GAM1 3
GAM1 4
GAM3 1 (Awakens from dream sequence)
GAM3 12-FB 

PIERRE, a THIEF (last name?)
GAM1 1
GAM1 2
GAM1 4-BTS 

PROFESSOR X/CHARLES FRANCIS XAVIER
X 16
XFOR 18
GAM1 1
XU 5
UX 314 

PSYLOCKE/ELIZABETH "BETSY" BRADDOCK 
X 16
XFOR 18
GAM1 1-BTS
X 34 
ROGUE
XFOR 17
GAM1 1
GAM1 2
GAM1 3
GAM1 4
X 33 

STORM/ORORO MUNROE
XFOR 18
GAM1 1
UX 311 

TANTE MATTIE
GAM3 12-FB (recalls Gambit rescuing her)
GAM1 3 (1st appearance)
GAM1 4
R 2 

TITHE COLLECTOR
GAM3 12 (back in time)
GAM1 1 (1st appearance)
GAM1 2
GAM1 3
GAM1 4
GAM3 12-FB (Gambit retelling Sehkmet of meeting Tithe Collector a short while before) 

WOLVERINE/LOGAN
X 16
XFOR 18
GAM1 1
W2 82 

	Reply
Posted by Bernard Assaf on October 17, 2000 at 22:14:21: 

In Reply to: Gambit Vol. 1 posted by Bernard Assaf on October 02, 2000 at 01:01:48: 

Any thoughts on the 1st Gambit mini-series chronicles I put together? Anybody? Class? Class? Beuler? Beuler?
 
Admittedly, I don't read the board with as much frequency as the other Board (bored?) members,
but I'm still here, chronicling if only in my mind during boring meetings or long commutes to work. 

Long live the MCP... 

		Reply
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 18, 2000 at 08:42:32: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Vol. 1 posted by Bernard Assaf on October 17, 2000 at 22:14:21:
 
> Any thoughts on the 1st Gambit mini-series chronicles I put together? 

Well, I can only speak for myself, but... 

You're listing books which appear to be from the first gap. There's nothing wrong with that. Any discussion about chronologies of characters or the Marvel Universe in general is welcome and on-topic here, but I won't be using posts about the gap to place chronologies in the MCP itself. 

I have to do that work myself, and then trust everyone here to look over my shoulder. Of course, once the book has been added, then these topics can influence their position in the MCP. 

So I haven't responded because, not having indexed the books yet, I don't know how to respond.

			Reply
Posted by Bernard Assaf on October 21, 2000 at 13:14:28: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Vol. 1 posted by Russ Chappell on October 18, 2000 at 08:42:32: 

Gotcha. You said any Gambit issue not in the MCP was fair game for chronicling, so I just decided to start with the limited series. I'll try to get to the second one next. the MCP does list the 2nd of that 2nd four-issue series, anyway, so I suppose it's not in the 1st gap. 

Bernard 

				Reply
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 21, 2000 at 14:12:27: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Vol. 1 posted by Bernard Assaf on October 21, 2000 at 13:14:28: 

My apologies for not being clearer. I was referring to the current Gambit series. IAC, for the record, the second Gambit limited series is in the second gap, but not knowing how many issues there were, I haven't added to the Gap2 pages.

THREAD TITLE: LEFTWINGER AND RIGHTWINGER
Posted by Paulo C. on October 02, 2000 at 15:40:06: 

These characters first appeared as members of the Buckies, the squad that hung around John Walker when he was Superpatriot. They are overlooked by the MCP, a major fault in my view, since they played a major part in the Walker's saga as Captain America. 

They appeared in the Grue's run. Does anyone have a full run from around the 330s to the 350s (plus the Avengers West Coast stories featuring Immortus' Legion of the Unliving)? I don't unfortunately. 

PC 

	Reply
Posted by Prime Eternal on October 02, 2000 at 22:48:56: 

In Reply to: Leftwinger and Rightwinger posted by Paulo C. on October 02, 2000 at 15:40:06: 

Here's what their entries should look like: 

Left-Winger/Hector Lennox
CA 381/2-FB
CA 323 (1st app)
CA 333
CA 334
CA 341/2
CA 347
CA 383/3-FB
AWC 61
CA 383/3 

Right-Winger/Jerome "Jerry" Johnson
CA 381/2-FB
CA 323 (1st app)
CA 333
CA 334
CA 341/2
CA 347
CA 383/3-FB
AWC 61 

Michael Hoskin 

THREAD TITLE: MINOR X-MEN REVISIONS
Posted by Masoud Shadravan on October 03, 2000 at 10:07:31: 

Nanny: the Nanny robot that appears in X-Men #113 also appears in #112. 

Eamon O'Donnell appears in X-Men #101, not #102. And his last name is spelled with 2 "l"'s according to X-Men #101 and #103. 

Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Storm, Banshee, Colossus, Cyclops, & Phoenix appear in a flashback in X-Men #108. It shows 7 shadowy figures travelling through the space warp Phoenix created in X-Men #105. In X-Men #107, they are already on the planet with the M'Kron Crystal. Their chronologies should appear as follows: 

X-Men #105
X-Men #108 ~ FB
X-Men #107

THREAD TITLE: THE TORPEDO'S DAUGHTER: ANNIE OR TAMMY?
Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 03, 2000 at 10:38:31: 

Here's a question not exactly of chronology, but of name. In her first appearance in MARVEL PREMIERE (M/PRM) #39, Brock Jones' (Torpedo III) oldest daughter is called Annie. (I just now sent a note to Russ to add this appearance, so it's not in the MCP yet.) In ROM #21, she's called Tammy. I believe she is called both Tammy and Annie in subsequent issues of ROM, although Tammy may be more prevalent. 

To further complicate matters, IIRC, the OHOTMU, under the Torpedo's entry, says his children are Annie, Daniel, and Tammy. This is clearly incorrect as his youngest daughter (who was born sometime between M/PRM #40 and ROM #21 (her first appearance)) is always called Nell. 

So do we go with Annie, her original name, or Tammy, which may have been used more often? I have not had time (and do not forsee having the time) to more fully investigate the matter. 

	Reply
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 03, 2000 at 14:52:10: 

In Reply to: The Torpedo's daughter: Annie or Tammy? posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 03, 2000 at 10:38:31: 

Maybe they're both right. Perhaps Tammy, being used more often, is her first name, and Annie her middle or nickname. Odd combination, but that'd honor both possibilities. 

- StAkAr Karnak 

		reply
Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 11, 2000 at 10:18:03: 

In Reply to: Re: The Torpedo's daughter: Annie or Tammy? posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 03, 2000 at 14:52:10: 

No offense, but while this excuse is often used, I don't like it here (but I'm biased). I'd rather chalk it up to writer error. 

The question still remains which name to use (first). I don't know for a fact that Tammy was used more often. I guess I'll have to be the one to research this (someday), since it's trivial to everyone else. 

THREAD TITLE: TORPEDO, BAD FLASHBACKS
Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 03, 2000 at 12:42:45: 

Reviewing the Torpedo III's chronology, I discover the flashbacks listed in ROM 28 & 29 are in the wrong place, if they should be listed at all. First I'll cover the actual flashbacks, then the order they should be in. 

ROM 28:
Four panels of flashbacks on pp. 19-20.
The first is a flashback to ROM 26 with no new info.
The second to ROM 27 with no new info.
Third to just after events shown in ROM 27.
Fourth to BTS events in earlier in ROM 28. 

ROM 29:
Three panels of flashbacks, all on page 4.
The first is a flashback to between ROM 24 & 25.
The second shows only a Wraith in the shape of the Torpedo.
The third is a flashback to BTS in ROM 28. 

So the proper chronology for the Torpedo is: 
ROM 24
ROM 29-FB
ROM 25
ROM 26
ROM 27
ROM 28-FB
ROM 29-FB
ROM 28
ROM 29 

While I'm at it, the chronology for Steve Jackson should be: 
ROM 27
ROM 28-FB
ROM 28
ROM 29 

And for Brandy Clark (Starshine II): 
ROM 27
ROM 28-FB
ROM 29-FB
ROM 28
ROM 29 

THREAD TITLE: NUMBERS 0 & 0.5
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 03, 2000 at 15:00:06: 

I'd like to start threads showing how best to integrate #0 and 1/2 issues, commonly packaged with Wizard into the Project. There are likely many who don't buy them on principle, but they are established canon material, so I'd like to devote a thread to each and get opinions on whether they are valid for inclusion. To start off, it'd be nice to compile a list of what exists. There's been: 

Avengers vol. 3 #0
Captain Marvel vol. 5 #0
Iron Man #?
Thunderbolts #0 

- StAkAr Karnak 

	reply
Posted by Jeph York on October 03, 2000 at 16:59:09: 

In Reply to: Numbers 0 & 0.5 posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 03, 2000 at 15:00:06:
 
: I'd like to compile a list of what exists. 

I think it was an Iron Man 1/2, but don't quote me on it. 

There's also been: 
Wolverine #1/2
X-Men #1/2
Gambit #1/2
Generation X #1/2
Deadpool #0
New Warriors #0
X-51 #0 
and, I think, an Earth-X #1/2. 

There was also a Devil's Reign #1/2 featuring some Marvel characters, but I'm not sure if Marvel/Top Cow crossovers are canon here. 

There is a Generation X #0, too, but it wasn't a Wizard book -- it was given away free at some con or another as advertising, and contains original material by Lobdell and Bachalo that was reprinted in X-Men Rarities. This does, however, make Generation X the only Marvel book to have a #-1, 0, and 1/2 issue. 

		reply
Posted by Jeph York on October 03, 2000 at 17:01:03: 

In Reply to: Re: Numbers 0 & 0.5 posted by Jeph York on October 03, 2000 at 16:59:09: 

Oh! Stupid me -- there's also a Hulk #1/2 and a Spider-Man #1/2. 

-Jeph! 

			Reply
Posted by Prime Eternal on October 03, 2000 at 17:59:00: 

In Reply to: Re: Numbers 0 & 0.5 posted by Jeph York on October 03, 2000 at 17:01:03: 

And...
Slingers#0
Spider-Girl#0
Spider-Girl#1/2
Fantastic Four#1/2
Wild Thing#0
Earth X#0
Universe X#0
Silver Surfer#1/2 

Michael Hoskin 

		Reply
Posted by Lee K. Seitz on October 04, 2000 at 09:56:51: 

In Reply to: Re: Numbers 0 & 0.5 posted by Jeph York on October 03, 2000 at 16:59:09: 

: There's also been: 
: New Warriors #0 

Just to specify, this was New Warriors, vol. 2, #0. 

	Reply
Posted by Bernard Assaf on October 04, 2000 at 16:21:30: 

In Reply to: Numbers 0 & 0.5 posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 03, 2000 at 15:00:06: 

Speaking of things to integrate, a Gambit comic exists online at www.marvel.com. It's a shockwave set of animations and features him and Sekmeht (sp?) on an Indiana Jones-style adventure similar to Gambit Vol. 3 #1. And, in Gambit Vol. 3 #12, this adventure is referenced, complete with an editorial footnote to www.marvel.com. This makes it canon, right--so we should integrate it into the MCP. 

		Reply
Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 04, 2000 at 17:31:58: 

In Reply to: Gambit Online Comic posted by Bernard Assaf on October 04, 2000 at 16:21:30: 

: Speaking of things to integrate, a Gambit comic exists online at www.marvel.com. It's a shockwave set of animations and features him and Sekmeht (sp?) on an Indiana Jones-style adventure similar to Gambit Vol. 3 #1. And, in Gambit Vol. 3 #12, this adventure is referenced, complete with an editorial footnote to www.marvel.com. This makes it canon, right--so we should integrate it into the MCP. 

I've yet to read any Marvel Shockwave stuff and would dismiss it if not for the footnote you sited. Unless web comics are archived permanently (and even then), I am personally extremely hesitant to take them seriously. 

- StAkAr

			reply
Posted by Paul O'Brien on October 05, 2000 at 17:15:21: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 04, 2000 at 17:31:58: 

: I've yet to read any Marvel Shockwave stuff and would dismiss it if not for the footnote you sited. Unless web comics are archived permanently (and even then), I am personally extremely hesitant to take them seriously. 

Normally I'd agree with you, but the Gambit Cybercomic is an unusual - and to date, so far as I'm aware, the only - example of one being expressly referred to in continuity. I understand it also includes a status change for Spat and Grovel. 

I've never actually read the thing, mainly because Marvel's web page is so ineptly designed that despite spending half an hour searching for the sodding thing, I couldn't even find it.

				Reply
Posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 00:29:05: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic posted by Paul O'Brien on October 05, 2000 at 17:15:21: 

I read it once, then Marvel redesigned the site and it seems to have vanished. Does anyone actually know where to FIND this damned cybercomic? I can't find it either. 

I might argue that if the thing doesn't exist anymore, then it doesn't need to be archived. 

-Jeph! 

					Reply
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 13, 2000 at 08:41:18: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 00:29:05: 

> I might argue that if the thing doesn't exist anymore, then it doesn't need to be archived. 

But it could become available again, at any point. Do we add and subtract appearances, as the stories become available, or not available? 

The next cybercomic that's referenced via footnote in a Marvel story, do we add the appearances? What do we do when it's no longer available? 

Or is removing the cybercomic "retconning" its existence, which means that the footnote (or dialog reference, or whatever) isn't accurate, after all?

						Reply
Posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 10:54:31: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic posted by Russ Chappell on October 13, 2000 at 08:41:18:
 
: But it could become available again, at any point. Do we add and subtract appearances, as the stories become available, or not available? 

Define "available". This is a unique instance -- this comic currently DOES NOT EXIST in any form other than a saved program at Marvel Web Central. It was never "published". Any other comic, any other physical object published by Marvel, exists in published form. Even if you don't own it, somebody does. There is no instance that I know of, yet, of a "lost comic". All published works still exist somewhere. 

The Gambit cybercomic, however, was never "published" in the same sense. It was never available TO OWN in the same sense as a comic book is. When it was taken down from Marvel.com, it ceased to exist in the eyes of the collectors. There is no accurate way to catalogue or chronologize it except in the faulty memories of all those who may have read it. 

I make the distinction between existing material and published, available material. The first is not canon. Marvel creators write and draw many many plot lines and story twists that do not go through the publishing process. They exist, and can be discussed and remembered, and even posted on web pages, but they are not canon -- to me, in large part because they have not been published and cannot be purchased and owned. The Gambit cybercomic does not currently exist. It sits around the Marvel offices waiting to be put back up on a webpage, and to me fits in the same category of all those sketches and plotlines that are buried in file drawers, intended at one time to be canon but never actually published. 

: The next cybercomic that's referenced via footnote in a Marvel story, do we add the appearances? What do we do when it's no longer available? 

I suppose that all depends on the precedent we set here, now doesn't it? 

: Or is removing the cybercomic "retconning" its existence, which means that the footnote (or dialog reference, or whatever) isn't accurate, after all? 

Now, that's not fair. Plenty of footnotes are currently inaccurate thanks to retcons made in the actual published books, years later! Fantastic Four #102, in dealing with Magneto, points readers toward Uncanny X-Men #63; whereas now, thanks to John Byrne, the FF adventure now follows the events of Hidden Years #12! The footnote is now inaccurate. So what? Plenty of footnotes are just plain wrong, through editorial mess-ups or typos!
 
At least one footnote is honestly fraudulent. In Captain Marvel vol. 4 #6, Peter David refers readers to the "Small X-Pectations" one-shot to explain how the Microverse was compacted by the X-Men. This book never occurs, yet the implication is that the events occured; are canon. CM4 6 most likely merits a [FB] appearance of the X-Men for it. Just because the Small X-Pectations one-shot does not exist doesn't mean the Microverse hasn't been affacted behind the scenes; and just because the Gambit cybercomic "doesn't exist" doesn't mean that the adventure the footnote refers to didn't occur. 

Not including the cybercomic in the MCP isn't "retconning" its existance, it's acknowledging its status as a non-comic. According to the footnote in Gambit #12, SOMEthing happened; some adventure somewhere is being referenced. But I'd say that THE FLASHBACK ITSELF merits a reference in the MCP more than the cybercomic does. After all, the flashback and verbal reference are the only PUBLISHED evidence we have that an adventure happened. 

You want to know what I think? I think the Fruit Pie ads take place in a seperate universe -- the Hostess Universe. I think the cybercomics take place in an alternate universe too -- the Marvel.comVerse. Just because at one time, an adventure was published online that featured Gambit, doesn't mean it was the Marvel Universe's Gambit. Just because a footnote refers us to a particular comic doesn't make it accurate; all it's doing is referring us to the fact that an event occured, as in my FF example above. 

If Marvel.com posts a page of Peter David's handwritten notes on a one-shot he wanted to do called X-Men: Small X-Pectations, then this is all that exists of the events previously footnoted in CM4 6. Should we archive this webpage? The footnote tells us to. 

Do you see my point? 

I think it's up to us to draw the line somewhere, and I draw it at stories that I cannot physically hold in my hands and own. I think we should acknowledge that the Gambit/Spat/Grovel story occured in the Marvel Universe, and archive the GAM3 12 FB as proof -- but I don't think that the cybercomic is the Official Marvel Universe version of the events referenced. 

-Jeph! 

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Posted by Russ Chappell on October 13, 2000 at 14:57:54: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic (getting silly) posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 10:54:31: 

> : The next cybercomic that's referenced via footnote in a Marvel story, do we add the appearances? What do we do when it's no longer available? 

> I suppose that all depends on the precedent we set here, now doesn't it? 

Agreed. That's why we discuss it. 

> : Or is removing the cybercomic "retconning" its existence, which means that the footnote (or dialog reference, or whatever) isn't accurate, after all? 

> Now, that's not fair. Plenty of footnotes are currently inaccurate thanks to retcons made in the actual published books, years later! Fantastic Four #102, in dealing with Magneto, points readers toward Uncanny X-Men #63; whereas now, thanks to John Byrne, the FF adventure now follows the events of Hidden Years #12! The footnote is now inaccurate. So what? Plenty of footnotes are just plain wrong, through editorial mess-ups or typos! 

> If Marvel.com posts a page of Peter David's handwritten notes on a one-shot he wanted to do called X-Men: Small X-Pectations, then this is all that exists of the events previously footnoted in CM4 6. Should we archive this webpage? The footnote tells us to. 

> Do you see my point? 

I see your point. I'm not sure you've seen mine, which is that using footnotes as evidence that a story is canon (which was being done, up until the point that the cyber-comic was removed) is tricky business. Your examples seem to support my position. 

> I think it's up to us to draw the line somewhere, and I draw it at stories that I cannot physically hold in my hands and own. I think we should acknowledge that the Gambit/Spat/Grovel story occured in the Marvel Universe, and archive the GAM3 12 FB as proof -- but I don't think that the cybercomic is the Official Marvel Universe version of the events referenced. 

Thanks, Jeph. The real issue here is the special editions, rather than the cyber comics. Your opinion is duly noted. I trust the Board will take Jeph's comments into account.

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Posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 19:07:02: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic (getting silly) posted by Russ Chappell on October 13, 2000 at 14:57:54:
 
: I see your point. I'm not sure you've seen mine, which is that using footnotes as evidence that a story is canon (which was being done, up until the point that the cyber-comic was removed) is tricky business. Your examples seem to support my position. 

My apologies -- I wasn't expressly referring to You, Russ Chappell, when I asked that. I meant "You, Plural". The Readers of the Board. Anyone. If anything, my comments were directed to Stakar Karnak, who advocates including the cybercomic. Sorry if I pissed you off -- yes, I did see your point, and am glad if my examples might help you out. 

: Thanks, Jeph. The real issue here is the special editions, rather than the cyber comics. 

Fine. Sorry. Even though it seems that we all stopped talking about the Special Editions, what, two days ago, and the subject header has been "Gambit Online Comic" since the fourth ... my bad, I guess. 

:Your opinion is duly noted. I trust the Board will take Jeph's comments into account. 

Which of course, means Shut Up. :) 

Okay -- no prob, I've said my piece anyway. Wizard comics, good; cybercomic bad. I'll just go back to archiving British books for you now. 

No hard feelings, I hope. 

-Jeph!

who would, by the way, be happy to archive some of those Wizard Special Editions for you if you don't have access to them... 

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Posted by Russ Chappell on October 13, 2000 at 22:44:41: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic (getting snippy) posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 19:07:02: 

> :Your opinion is duly noted. I trust the Board will take Jeph's comments into account. 

> Which of course, means Shut Up. :) 

Hunh? It means nothing of the sort. It means I understand where you're coming from. I agree with some of your points, and disagree with others, but I'll side with a majority of the Board, however that eventually plays out. And right now, I don't know how that'll be. It could be:

A. Add special editions and cyber-comics.
B. Add special editions but not cyber-comics.
C. Add cyber-comics but not special editions.
D. Add neither special editions nor cyber-comics.
And there's probably an E somewhere in there, once Paul Bourcier chips in. 

> Okay -- no prob, I've said my piece anyway. Wizard comics, good; cybercomic bad. I'll just go back to archiving British books for you now. 

You know, if some people believe I'm for both Wizard and cybercomics, and others believe I'm against both of them, and still others believe I'm only for one of them (but they don't agree on which one), then maybe I've done a better job than I thought at stimulating the discussion. 

: No hard feelings, I hope. 

No, why should there be? You've stated your case with passion and clarity, which is all anyone can ask. 

> -Jeph!
> who would, by the way, be happy to archive some of those Wizard Special Editions for you if you don't have access to them... 

Stand by...

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Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 14, 2000 at 15:30:45: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic (getting snippy) posted by Russ Chappell on October 13, 2000 at 22:44:41: 

> I'll side with a majority of the Board, however that eventually plays out. And right now, I don't know how that'll be. 

Clarification REQ: You'll side with the majority of the Board as opposed to what the most convincing arguments are? 

> It could be:

[Scenarios snipped] 

Isn't it as cut and dry as what is canon and what isn't? If not, I suggest an ammendation to the MCP's purpose.
 
- StAkAr Karnak 

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Posted by Russ Chappell on October 14, 2000 at 17:52:20: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic (getting snippy) posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 14, 2000 at 15:30:45: 

> Clarification REQ: You'll side with the majority of the Board as opposed to what the most convincing arguments are? 

You're quoting me on a clarification of a previous quote. In the original quote, I said that I trust the Board will take into account the most convincing arguments in reaching a decision. 

If a majority of the Board takes a particular stance, and I say, "Well, I don't care what the Board thinks; I'm going to do it my way,"--which is my right, since I own 100% of the stock--the Board will probably resign in protest, thinking, "What are we doing here?" 

I need the help and advice of the Board. The members have agreed to provide it, and the game plan is to accept it.

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Posted by Bernard Assaf on October 17, 2000 at 22:09:03: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic (getting snippy) posted by Russ Chappell on October 14, 2000 at 17:52:20:
 
Well, dang, I started a big mess, didn't I? My vote is the same as when I begun the madness. I vote for the Gambit CyberComic to appear in the chronology. As I have seen it, I can tell you for certain that the following characters appear in it: 

Gambit
Sehkmet 

Ok, that wasn't much help, but these two should definitely get an entry in the chronologies for the comic. I'm sure Marvel still has it somewhere so we should ask them to resurrect it for us. 

Ben 

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Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 13, 2000 at 19:45:01: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic (getting silly) posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 10:54:31: 
Jeph! spake: 

> This is a unique instance -- this comic currently DOES NOT EXIST in any form other than a saved program at Marvel Web Central. 

It existed. If every copy of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #3 was systematically hunted down and destroyed, the title still existed at one time and has been referenced. Its current nonexistence shouldn't invalidate that. 

> It was never "published". 

It was published online. Canonicity doesn't discriminate. 

> Any other comic, any other physical object published by Marvel, exists in published form. Even if you don't own it, somebody does. There is no instance that I know of, yet, of a "lost comic". All published works still exist somewhere. 

First time for everything. 

> The Gambit cybercomic, however, was never "published" in the same sense. It was never available TO OWN in the same sense as a comic book is. 

Ownership isn't an issue. I don't own MARVEL KNIGHTS #1 and never will, but I don't deny that things happened in it. 

> When it was taken down from Marvel.com, it ceased to exist in the eyes of the collectors. There is no accurate way to catalogue or chronologize it except in the faulty memories of all those who may have read it. 

Whether it will ever be available again isn't an issue. If canon events occured (which the footnote would seem to indicate), it will always be a candidate for inclusion. 

> I make the distinction between existing material and published, available material. The first is not canon. Marvel creators write and draw many many plot lines and story twists that do not go through the publishing process. They exist, and can be discussed and remembered, and even posted on web pages, but they are not canon -- to me, in large part because they have not been published and cannot be purchased and owned. 

Such as MARVELS II on Avengers Assemble!. I'm with you so far. 

> The Gambit cybercomic does not currently exist. 

Irrelevant. It did. 

> It sits around the Marvel offices waiting to be put back up on a webpage, and to me fits in the same category of all those sketches and plotlines that are buried in file drawers, intended at one time to be canon but never actually published. 

To Marvel, it is canon until such time that a Marvel publication overturns it. 

> Plenty of footnotes are currently inaccurate thanks to retcons made in the actual published books, years later! 

The cybercomic has yet to be officially retconned. 

> At least one footnote is honestly fraudulent. [Snipped "Small X-Pectations"] 

The Gambit footnote was not intended to be fradulent. 

> Not including the cybercomic in the MCP isn't "retconning" its existance, it's acknowledging its status as a non-comic. 

This is not the "Marvel Comic Chronology Project". 

> According to the footnote in Gambit #12, SOMEthing happened; some adventure somewhere is being referenced. 

But which one? I'll give you three guesses... 

> But I'd say that THE FLASHBACK ITSELF merits a reference in the MCP more than the cybercomic does. 

I don't have the book, so I don't know whether there was an actual flashback. If so, that's naturally game. 

> After all, the flashback and verbal reference are the only PUBLISHED evidence we have that an adventure happened. 

See above. Web-publishing, baby. 

> You want to know what I think? I think the Fruit Pie ads take place in a seperate universe -- the Hostess Universe. 

Yep. Nowhere was it published that Iceguy's (I forget his name) prior appearance was canon. Just that there was an appearance. Like when Spidey appeared in Star Comics' TOP DOG. That wasn't canon either. 

> I think the cybercomics take place in an alternate universe too -- the Marvel.comVerse. 

Yep. To date Gambit is the sole exception. 

> Just because a footnote refers us to a particular comic doesn't make it accurate; all it's doing is referring us to the fact that an event occured, as in my FF example above. 

The FF was retconned. Gambit stands. 

> If Marvel.com posts a page of Peter David's handwritten notes on a one-shot he wanted to do called X-Men: Small X-Pectations, then this is all that exists of the events previously footnoted in CM4 6. Should we archive this webpage? The footnote tells us to. 

If they were just PAD'S notes, no. If it were published in any venue as an Official Product, yes. If Fabian Nicieza posted notes for *his* version of AVENGERS: WORLD IN CHAINS (referenced in AVENGERS FOREVER), that wouldn't be canon. Neither if Kurt did. If anyone published an *Official* A:WIC, then we would. It all comes down to what is official. 

> I think we should acknowledge that the Gambit/Spat/Grovel story occured in the Marvel Universe, and archive the GAM3 12 FB as proof -- but I don't think that the cybercomic is the Official Marvel Universe version of the events referenced. 

And I disagree based on established canonicity and the MCP's stated adherence to it as I understand it. 

- StAkAr Karnak, not as neurotic as he sounds. Well, maybe a little. 

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Posted by Jeph, please dear god no more :-) on October 14, 2000 at 10:15:01: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic (getting silly) (sez you!) posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 13, 2000 at 19:45:01: 

: It was published online. Canonicity doesn't discriminate. 

Fine. Show me your copy. :-) 

: Ownership isn't an issue. I don't own MARVEL KNIGHTS #1 and never will, but I don't deny that things happened in it. 

My point here is that you CAN'T own it, even if you wanted to. You can't sit down with all of Gambit's appearances and read them in order -- there'll always be one missing. And you will, most likely, NEVER SEE IT AGAIN. 

To me it's like a Marvel creator holding up a piece of finished artwork and saying "Look quick! The lost adventure of Gambit!", then taking it away again. The MCP is as much a reference guide as anything else, and what good is it if someone hunting down all of Gambit's appearances comes across a listing for a non-existent story? 

This, by the way, is Marvel's fault. Not the MCP's. Lest anyone think I'm mad at you for attempting to canonize the obscure, I'm not -- I'm mad at Marvel for putting us in this position. :-) 

: The Gambit footnote was not intended to be fradulent. 

I guess my point here is that footnotes are inherently suspect. They're used to help the reader learn more, not as an absolute guidepost for canonicity. Sometime's they're wrong. Sometimes they WERE right but BECOME wrong. How's a new reader of Gambit going to follow that footnote now, huh? 

 
: I don't have the book, so I don't know whether there was an actual flashback. If so, that's naturally game. 

I just checked -- actually, there isn't. ::blush:: Just a wee summing-up of events and a footnote. There are black spaces in the panels that according to Fabian were *supposed* to have stills from the webcomic dropped in, but nobody ever did. Failed flashback? :-) 

: > I think the cybercomics take place in an alternate universe too -- the Marvel.comVerse. 

: Yep. To date Gambit is the sole exception. 

And I seriously hope it stays that way. 

Here's my final thought on the matter. I've said my piece and I shall post no more on this topic: 

If it's going to be archived, go re-read it, study every panel in detail, and then archive it in its absolutely proper place in the MCP, based on character appearances, footnote references, and dialogue inference. 

If you can't do that because you can't remember the details and can't ever reference it to check -- well then, maybe it's not a good candidate for inclusion. 

I'm done. Talk amongst yourselves. 

-Jeph! 

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Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 14, 2000 at 15:20:50: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic (my final answer) posted by Jeph, please dear god no more :-) on October 14, 2000 at 10:15:01: 

> My point here is that you CAN'T own it, even if you wanted to. You can't sit down with all of Gambit's appearances and read them in order -- there'll always be one missing. And you will, most likely, NEVER SEE IT AGAIN. 

That's not our problem. The MCP will have fulfilled its purpose. The rest is in Marvel's hands. 

> To me it's like a Marvel creator holding up a piece of finished artwork and saying "Look quick! The lost adventure of Gambit!", then taking it away again. The MCP is as much a reference guide as anything else, and what good is it if someone hunting down all of Gambit's appearances comes across a listing for a non-existant story? 

It informs the reader that the material *did* exist at one point in time for completion's sake. 

> This, by the way, is Marvel's fault. 

It probably won't be the last marketing gimmick. UNICEF Spidey/Venom anyone? 

> I guess my point here is that footnotes are inherently suspect. 

News to me. 

> They're used to help the reader learn more, not as an absolute guidepost for canonicity. 

That would seem to be a contradiction. Of what relevant value would a reference to non-canonical material be? Sure, there're the SMALL X-PECTATIONS and AVENGERS: WORLD IN CHAINS, refs, but they were purposely intended as jokes and not intended to "help the reader learn more". 

> Sometime's they're wrong. 

Was the footnote wrong at the time of publication? Has it been retconned as yet? Not that I am aware of. 

> How's a new reader of Gambit going to follow that footnote now, huh? 

Not our problem. It served the purpose back then. Whether it was a time-sensitive reference or not, there was apparently no confusion as to what it meant at the time. 

: : > I think the cybercomics take place in an alternate universe too -- the Marvel.comVerse. 

: : Yep. To date Gambit is the sole exception. 

: And I seriously hope it stays that way. 

Then you admit it is the exception? There you go. 

> If it's going to be archived, go re-read it, study every panel in detail, and then archive it in its absolutely proper place in the MCP, based on character appearances, footnote references, and dialogue inference. If you can't do that because you can't remember the details and can't ever reference it to check -- well then, maybe it's not a good candidate for inclusion. 

An insertion could be made into Gambit's listing simply reading something like GAMBIT CYBERCOMIC at the appropriate place. Whatever characters are known to have made an appearance could be dealt with in the same way. IIRC, Fabian Nicieza wrote it, so someone could ask him. 

- StAkAr Karnak 

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Posted by ShadZ on July 25, 2001 at 14:41:48: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic (getting silly) (sez you!) posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 13, 2000 at 19:45:01: 

: > You want to know what I think? I think the Fruit Pie ads take place in a seperate universe -- the Hostess Universe. 

: Yep. Nowhere was it published that Iceguy's (I forget his name) prior appearance was canon. Just that there was an appearance. Like when Spidey appeared in Star Comics' TOP DOG. That wasn't canon either. 

Actually, if you read the TOP DOG story, the story makes it clear that it is not MU cannon. (i.e. you don't need to wait for a future Spider-Man story to include or debunk Spidy's appearnce in TOP DOG, because the TOP DOG story already did that). 

The "Spider-Man" in that story is an actor in a suit, hired to play Spider-Man at a comic book store. The story makes no mention of the standard Marvel explanation that "the Spider-Man comics in this story are fictionalized retellings of real news reports of SpiderMan's adventures". The characters in the story never refer to Spider-Man as anything but fictional. So I would assume that there is no Spider-Man in the Star Comics Universe (which means that the Star Comics Universe and the Marvel Universe are not the same). 

Then, at the end of the story, the Star Universe Peter Parker shows up (as a news photographer). He has no thought ballons about how he is secretly Spider-Man, and is presented as nothing other than a news photog (and not on the crime beat either -- he's covering a costumed character's appearnce at a comic book store). 

If anybody's interested, I have always assumed that all of the (non-licensed, non-funny animal) Star Comics happen in the same Star Comics Universe*, and I have never seen any evidence in the stories to contradict that, and many crosovers to support it. The Star Comics Universe does have versions of some MU characters (Peter Parker, Millie the Model), but they are different from their MU versions. 

ShadZ 

*except one. When Marvel launched Star, they said one of the comics was set in the MU, but they wouldn't say WHICH one. I'm pretty sure they were refering to PLANET TERRY, which involved a kid who dresses like a Kree, traveling around space trying to find his missing parents. I doubt any cannonical link was ever established, however. 


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Posted by Russ Chappell on October 05, 2000 at 18:57:31: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 04, 2000 at 17:31:58: 

> > Speaking of things to integrate, a Gambit comic exists online at www.marvel.com. It's a shockwave set of animations and features him and Sekmeht (sp?) on an Indiana Jones-style adventure similar to Gambit Vol. 3 #1. And, in Gambit Vol. 3 #12, this adventure is referenced, complete with an editorial footnote to www.marvel.com. This makes it canon, right--so we should integrate it into the MCP. 

> I've yet to read any Marvel Shockwave stuff and would dismiss it if not for the footnote you sited. Unless web comics are archived permanently (and even then), I am personally extremely hesitant to take them seriously. 

I think this is an excellent example of the problems we're going to face, if we decide to add Wizard limited editions to the MCP, though.

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Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 12, 2000 at 20:05:27: 

In Reply to: Re: Gambit Online Comic posted by Russ Chappell on October 05, 2000 at 18:57:31: 

: I think this is an excellent example of the problems we're going to face, if we decide to add Wizard limited editions to the MCP, though. 

I feel web-based comics and Special Edition comics are apples and oranges. 

In the case of SE comics, although they are initially offered through special means, they are still physical comics that have been referenced in continuity. One might argue that their limited distribution may contribute to ruling them out, but SEs are sometimes reprinted for mass/mainstream distribution. Cases that come to mind include KURT BUSIEK'S ASTRO CITY, STAR WARS: EPISODE I and EARTH X. 

In the common usage of the term, zeroes and point-fives are still comics. Shockwave here-today-gone-tomorrow material is a whole different ballgame. 

My point here (and I do have one) is that just because one may be opposed to the inclusion of web-comics, that argument shouldn't automatically rule out SEs. 

After a lot of thought on the matter, I now favor including the Gambit comic - not because of any love for the medium, but because I feel this would honor the spirit of the MCP, that is, to record every canon appearance of each character. This should hold true if the canon appearance were on a fruit pie wrapper, a billboard, a trading card or any other medium. Whether we have to *like* it is a different matter. 

- StAkAr Karnak 

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Posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 00:12:55: 

In Reply to: Apples and Oranges (was Re: Gambit Online Comic) posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 12, 2000 at 20:05:27: 

: After a lot of thought on the matter, I now favor including the Gambit [cyber]comic - not because of any love for the medium, but because I feel this would honor the spirit of the MCP, that is, to record every canon appearance of each character. This should hold true if the canon appearance were on a fruit pie wrapper, a billboard, a trading card or any other medium. Whether we have to *like* it is a different matter. 

In that case, the MCP listing for Icemaster needs to be updated... 

According to continuity freak Kurt Busiek, the first appearance of Icemaster (who appeared in T-Bolts #24 and 25) was in -- you guessed it -- a Hostess Fruit Pie ad. 

That's right -- the letters page of issue 30 lists the first appearances of the 25 Masters of Evil, from the contest in T-Bolts #25, and Icemaster's only prior appearance was listed as " 'Human Torch in Icemaster Cometh', Hostess Fruit Pie ad, found in Avengers #191 (and other books dated cover month January of 1980)." 

Including this on the MCP is bordering on ridiculousness, but according to Busiek, it's canon. Are we supposed to believe that the Human Torch once defeated a villain by hurling Hostess Cakes at him? Dear God. 

If we open the doors to cybercomics that have been referenced in regular books, must we include this as well, now that it too has been "validated"? 

-Jeph!
...and how the hell does one *archive* that?... 

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Posted by Russ Chappell on October 13, 2000 at 08:29:56: 

In Reply to: Apples, Oranges, and Fruit Pies posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 00:12:55: 

Hold on. He didn't say it was canon, only that it was an appearance, the same way that Hercules and Thing appeared in those ads, and that Spider-Man appears on billboards for "Got Milk?"

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Posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 10:23:02: 

In Reply to: Re: Apples, Oranges, and Fruit Pies posted by Russ Chappell on October 13, 2000 at 08:29:56: 

Gotcha. An appearance of AN Icemaster, but not necessarily the Marvel Universe Icemaster. 

I think I was just trying to point out the folly of getting into other areas of chronologizing, besides comic books. I don't know -- it was late and I'm tired. :) All I know is that for some reason, I'm really against starting the practice of including Webcomics -- especially a Webcomic that, currently, doesn't exist anymore. It just doesn't seem right to start archiving things that I can't physically own and add to my collection. 

But I'm an old fart about this anyway.

-Jeph! 

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Posted by StAkAr Karnak on October 13, 2000 at 18:57:36: 

In Reply to: Re: Apples, Oranges, and Fruit Pies posted by Jeph! on October 13, 2000 at 10:23:02: 

Jeph spake regarding TBolts' Iceman: 

> I think I was just trying to point out the folly of getting into other areas of chronologizing, besides comic books. I don't know -- it was late and I'm tired. :) All I know is that for some reason, I'm really against starting the practice of including Webcomics -- especially a Webcomic that, currently, doesn't exist anymore. It just doesn't seem right to start archiving things that I can't physically own and add to my collection. 

I don't like it any more than you do, but until the MCP's 'charter', if you will, is amended, I see the inclusion of all canon material as necessary for completion's sake. 

I am reminded of the ninety-fifth Rule of Acquisition, "Expand ... or die." 

- StAkAr Karnak, metaphorically speaking, of course. (Gulp!) 

THREAD TITLE: QUESTIONS FOR THE MCP STAFF
Posted by Jeph York on October 03, 2000 at 17:29:59: 

Hi, folks. I've got some technical questions about how the MCP archives books and flashbacks, and I was hoping you could help me out. 

First of all -- I've been archiving Captain Britain for you lately, and the majority of the books I'm talking about are uniquely British -- very rare in the US. Now assuming that US Marvel books are easier to track down than British Marvel books (this is probably true everywhere in the world except the UK), would it be simpler to list the US versions of the British books on the MCP wherever possible? 

Example: CB makes appearances in several British magazines such as the Mighty World of Marvel and The Daredevils -- titles that are not part of the MCP, mainly because the staff has never heard of them. However, this entire run was reprinted in the US five years ago under the title "X-Men Archives featuring Captain Britain". Which title should we archive on the MCP? The relatively accesible US reprint book, or the original issues, never printed in the US? 

Next question: assuming you decide to include the UK books in the Key and as part of the MCP (which you should, as there are many UK books that are never reprinted), how should we deal with the UK magazine "Marvel Super-Heroes"? There are three other US titles by that name, and the MCP refers to them as M/SH, M/SH2, and M/SH3 respectively. The UK M/SH magazine began in or around 1974, which if you number titles in the key chronologically, would make *it* M/SH3, and bump #3 up to being #4. However, since it has never been published in the US, does it deserve to be given a seperate Volume number? Should we call it M/SH "Magazine" (since it's not comic-sized, either, but mag-sized); should we call it M/SH "UK" -- or, since US titles take paramount importance in terms of numbering, should we just stick it at the end and call it volume 4? 

A related question here: the UK title Mighty World of Marvel, that I've been discussing lately, is actually MWoM/ volume 2 -- the original book, also a UK title, ran an the late 70s -- but its content was entirely US reprints, and it will never ever need to be archived in any way on the MCP. Should we bother listing the 80s MWoM/ as MWoM/2 in the key, and let people wonder where volume 1 is, or should we just leave it as MWoM/ and simplify? 

One more question, about flashbacks and how to catalogue them. I understand that if a flashback shows new events that took place in a previous issue, it counts -- but what about flashbacks that reveal events between issues, or within the issue? 

Example 1: issue 3 of Hero-Man ends on a terrible cliffhanger: our hero begins to recite the alphabet! "A", he intones. "B". To be continued. Hero-Man issue 4 opens with our hero triumphantly shouting "Z!", and four pages into the issue, after carting away the evil Dyslexia, Hero-Man confies in his sidekick "the hard part was when I got to M", and a flashback ensues. "L, M .... N!" End flashback. The flashback depicts events that took place between issues 3 and 4, yet it was printed in issue #4 itself. Does it merit a FB entry, such as this? 

H-M#3
H-M#4-FB
H-M#4 

Example #2: same situation; Hero-Man vs. Dyslexia. Yet this time, it's all contained in issue #4. "A!" shouts our hero. "B!" Then -- there's an Interlude, where we watch in horror as Hero-Man's wife cheats on him with Marlboro Man, his mentor. Coming back from the interlude, we see that Hero-Man is on the verge of triumph: "Z!" As the police cart Dyslexia away, Hero-Man reveals to his sidekick the problem he had with the letter M, and the same flashnack ensues. The difference here is that the entire issue is self-contained. The flashback flashes back only to events that began and ended in the same issue -- readers who were mystified by Hero-Man's triumph on page 5 will discover the secret of the letter M a mere two pages later. Does it count as a flashback, and does it merit an MCP entry, like so: 

H-M#4
H-M#4-FB
H-M#4 

It seems sort of pointless to do this, as comics are littered with throwaway "revelatory" flashbacks of that sort: "but how'd you defeat him?" "Well, while nobody was looking I tied his shoelaces together." The entry "H-M#4" would cover the situation just as easily, and readers of the MCP -- and of Hero-Man #4 -- would read the story the way the writer intended, instead of trying to shuffle a 2-panel sequence back two pages in their mind to wher it "belongs" chronologically. 

Anyway -- answering these questions would greatly help me simplify the way I'm archiving the enormous amount of UK books that CB has been in. I expect to have a final run-down of his chronology posted in a week or so, and then I'll shut up about it all. ;) 

Thanks in advance for the help. 

-Jeph!
damn, what a cliffhanger... "B!" 

	reply
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 03, 2000 at 21:54:29: 

In Reply to: Questions for the MCP staff posted by Jeph York on October 03, 2000 at 17:29:59: 

> First of all -- I've been archiving Captain Britain for you lately, and the majority of the books I'm talking about are uniquely British -- very rare in the US. Now assuming that US Marvel books are easier to track down than British Marvel books (this is probably true everywhere in the world except the UK), would it be simpler to list the US versions of the British books on the MCP wherever possible? 

> Example: CB makes appearances in several British magazines such as the Mighty World of Marvel and The Daredevils -- titles that are not part of the MCP, mainly because the staff has never heard of them. However, this entire run was reprinted in the US five years ago under the title "X-Men Archives featuring Captain Britain". Which title should we archive on the MCP? The relatively accesible US reprint book, or the original issues, never printed in the US? 

The original issues. 

> Next question: assuming you decide to include the UK books in the Key and as part of the MCP (which you should, as there are many UK books that are never reprinted), how should we deal with the UK magazine "Marvel Super-Heroes"? There are three other US titles by that name, and the MCP refers to them as M/SH, M/SH2, and M/SH3 respectively. The UK M/SH magazine began in or around 1974, which if you number titles in the key chronologically, would make *it* M/SH3, and bump #3 up to being #4. However, since it has never been published in the US, does it deserve to be given a seperate Volume number? Should we call it M/SH "Magazine" (since it's not comic-sized, either, but mag-sized); should we call it M/SH "UK" -- or, since US titles take paramount importance in terms of numbering, should we just stick it at the end and call it volume 4? 

The volume numbers should be used exclusively for US titles, not least because it's possible for the same title to run concurrently in two different countries. I tend to lean toward some form of M/SH Magazine, with some notation in the Key to distinguish UK titles. 

> A related question here: the UK title Mighty World of Marvel, that I've been discussing lately, is actually MWoM/ volume 2 -- the original book, also a UK title, ran an the late 70s -- but its content was entirely US reprints, and it will never ever need to be archived in any way on the MCP. Should we bother listing the 80s MWoM/ as MWoM/2 in the key, and let people wonder where volume 1 is, or should we just leave it as MWoM/ and simplify? 

It should be volume 2. I see the MCP as at least partially a scholarly work, and as such am willing to sacrifice simplicity for accuracy. See for instance, Ghost Rider, volumes 2 and 3. Volume 1 was a western book which isn't currently being tracked. 

> One more question, about flashbacks and how to catalogue them. I understand that if a flashback shows new events that took place in a previous issue, it counts -- but what about flashbacks that reveal events between issues, or within the issue? 

> Example 1: issue 3 of Hero-Man ends on a terrible cliffhanger: our hero begins to recite the alphabet! "A", he intones. "B". To be continued. Hero-Man issue 4 opens with our hero triumphantly shouting "Z!", and four pages into the issue, after carting away the evil Dyslexia, Hero-Man confies in his sidekick "the hard part was when I got to M", and a flashback ensues. "L, M .... N!" End flashback. The flashback depicts events that took place between issues 3 and 4, yet it was printed in issue #4 itself. Does it merit a FB entry, such as this? 

> H-M#3
> H-M#4-FB
> H-M#4 

Yes....although it would never happen that way. Dyslexia would cast a confusion spell, causing Hero Man's recitation to read "N, L...S!" Get with the program. 

> Example #2: same situation; Hero-Man vs. Dyslexia. Yet this time, it's all contained in issue #4. "A!" shouts our hero. "B!" Then -- there's an Interlude, where we watch in horror as Hero-Man's wife cheats on him with Marlboro Man, his mentor. Coming back from the interlude, we see that Hero-Man is on the verge of triumph: "Z!" As the police cart Dyslexia away, Hero-Man reveals to his sidekick the problem he had with the letter M, and the same flashnack ensues. The difference here is that the entire issue is self-contained. The flashback flashes back only to events that began and ended in the same issue -- readers who were mystified by Hero-Man's triumph on page 5 will discover the secret of the letter M a mere two pages later. Does it count as a flashback, and does it merit an MCP entry, like so: 

> H-M#4
> H-M#4-FB
> H-M#4 

Yes. 

> It seems sort of pointless to do this, as comics are littered with throwaway "revelatory" flashbacks of that sort: "but how'd you defeat him?" "Well, while nobody was looking I tied his shoelaces together." The entry "H-M#4" would cover the situation just as easily, and readers of the MCP -- and of Hero-Man #4 -- would read the story the way the writer intended, instead of trying to shuffle a 2-panel sequence back two pages in their mind to wher it "belongs" chronologically. 

When I first started the Project, I felt pretty much the same way you do, but a discussion with fellow chronoscholar Paul Bourcier a few years ago convinced me of the wisdom of including these flashbacks (which is why the MCP is so inconsistent with these kinds of flashbacks--we just haven't gotten around to going *back* and picking them up).

THREAD TOPIC: QUESTION FOR RUSS
Posted by Prime Eternal on October 03, 2000 at 18:33:22: 

I'd very much like to provide the information for the Slingers series whenever you may like it, and I thought I'd put my offer out here first, before it's added to the "Closing the Gap" section. 

However, I suspect you have some good reasons for not having added the series yet...I know that I have a few concerns: 

#1: There are four different versions of Slingers#1, each highlighting a different cast-member. Each edition is exactly like the others, except for pages 7-14 & 25-32, which shift focus to the featured cast-member. 

The problem- and it's a big one- is that this means that the cast of characters is not the same in all four versions. For example, Ricochet's girlfriend Kathy makes her first appearance in the Ricochet version of Slingers#1, but her scenes do NOT appear in the other 3 versions. 

If you (or anyone else) knows a tidy way to resolve this, I'm all ears. Maybe I have no reason to obsess. 

#2: The Slingers cast-members made only two appearances outside of their own title- in New Warriors Vol.2 #1 and in Contest of Champions II. I don't own either of these, but to my understanding, all four members of Slingers- Dusk, Ricochet, Prodigy & Hornet- appear in both comics. 

The problem is that there is NOWHERE for these appearances to fit into the series itself. There are only three occasions where the four characters are gathered together: 

First, there's Slingers#0, in which the characters test their abilities on their first night out. The evening ends with Dusk falling off a building and dying. 

Second, there's Slingers#5, in which Hornet, Ricochet & Prodigy learn that Dusk is alive while they rescue people from a burning hotel. The evening ends with Prodigy being buried alive and presumed dead. 

Third, there's Slingers#10, in which Prodigy reveals to the others that he survived the building's collapse. This is the *best* candidate for where their guest appearances could be set, but it doesn't leave much room. 

The dialogue in #10 flows rather seemlessly, to whit: 
page 9 
Prodigy:"We must be hard to KILL."
Dusk:"Yeah, well...AMEN to THAT." 
*scene change- Mephisto observes the characters from hell* 
page 10 
Ricochet:"So let's run this DOWN, okay? Now that we're all HERE and everything. The meeting of the would-be-heroes-of-the-disaffected-generation-club is hereby called to ORDER." 

Following these words, Mephisto brings a billboard to life and carries the heroes to hell, where they are tormented throughout #11-12. When they finally leave hell in #12, they abandon their costumes. Hornet, in particular, leaves his armor behind. The team then breaks-up. They CANNOT have made appearances beyond #12. Stands to reason then, that their guest shots must somehow fit between panels of #10. 

Well, I understand that the appearance in New Warriors Vol.2 #1 is very brief. It's possible that it occured between pages 9 and 10, during the scene change to hell. And maybe there's a loop-hole that can fit Contest of Champions II in there as well. 

In any case, that'd be a headache for a later date, right? :-) 

#3:Slingers didn't feature many Marvel Universe characters, and of those who did appear, I can place the Black Marvel, Nanny & the Orphan-Maker's appearances myself. However, I have no idea how to fit in Mephisto & Spider-Man's appearances. 

Mephisto, for example, makes a flashback appearance set some time before Slingers#0. Around the time of that comic's publication, Mephisto was appearing in Black Panther, so I really don't know where this fits in. 
Spider-Man makes 6 different appearances, in Slingers#0,1,2,3,4, & 5. I don't know where these fit into his ever-convoluted chronology, but fortunately, all of them are isolated- in all six comics, Spider-Man breezes in and out of the story, never using up much time. Some of his appearances there could even occur between pages in his own book, honestly. 

Soooo, if you can help me out with these concerns, and would like me to whip up character chronologies for Slingers, I can get that done as soon as you want it. 

Michael Hoskin 

Reply
Posted by Russ Chappell on October 03, 2000 at 22:17:11: 

In Reply to: Question for Russ... posted by Prime Eternal on October 03, 2000 at 18:33:22: 

> I'd very much like to provide the information for the Slingers series whenever you may like it, and I thought I'd put my offer out here first, before it's added to the "Closing the Gap" section. 

> However, I suspect you have some good reasons for not having added the series yet...I know that I have a few concerns: 

The real reason is that I don't have the series, and don't know how many issues there were. 

> #1: There are four different versions of Slingers#1, each highlighting a different cast-member. Each edition is exactly like the others, except for pages 7-14 & 25-32, which shift focus to the featured cast-member. 

> The problem- and it's a big one- is that this means that the cast of characters is not the same in all four versions. For example, Ricochet's girlfriend Kathy makes her first appearance in the Ricochet version of Slingers#1, but her scenes do NOT appear in the other 3 versions. 

It's just a matter of ironing out the best way to identify the individual versions in the listings. Whether that's SLINGERS 1(A) - SLINGERS 1(D), or SLINGERS 1-RICOCHET, et al, or some other system, is up for debate. 

> Well, I understand that the appearance in New Warriors Vol.2 #1 is very brief. It's possible that it occured between pages 9 and 10, during the scene change to hell. And maybe there's a loop-hole that can fit Contest of Champions II in there as well. 

Seems like there's plenty of time between panels to me, but that's a judgment perhaps best left to those who have all the titles in question (I have only NW2 1). 

> #3:Slingers didn't feature many Marvel Universe characters, and of those who did appear, I can place the Black Marvel, Nanny & the Orphan-Maker's appearances myself. However, I have no idea how to fit in Mephisto & Spider-Man's appearances. 

> Mephisto, for example, makes a flashback appearance set some time before Slingers#0. Around the time of that comic's publication, Mephisto was appearing in Black Panther, so I really don't know where this fits in. 

My analyses indicate that these Black Panther stories were occurring at roughly the same time as ASM2 6 and IM3 20, if that helps. 

> Spider-Man makes 6 different appearances, in Slingers#0,1,2,3,4, & 5. I don't know where these fit into his ever-convoluted chronology, but fortunately, all of them are isolated- in all six comics, Spider-Man breezes in and out of the story, never using up much time. Some of his appearances there could even occur between pages in his own book, honestly. 

Well, we need help with Spider-Man, in general. Off the top of my head, I don't think anyone has volunteered for any Spider-Man issues off the Gap2 page. I know the boycott was running full steam at the time, but surely someone was buying the books.

	reply
Posted by Yellow Claw on October 24, 2000 at 07:39:03: 

In Reply to: Question for Russ... posted by Prime Eternal on October 03, 2000 at 18:33:22: 

: The problem is that there is NOWHERE for these appearances to fit into the series itself. There are only three occasions where the four characters are gathered together: 

Dusk is in both of those appearances, and they are set after she died, so they aren't in th e first gap you mention below. 


: Soooo, if you can help me out with these concerns, and would like me to whip up character chronologies for Slingers, I can get that done as soon as you want it. 

I have both of these issues, so if you remind me by e-mail I'll have a look at them when I'm at home and see if I can find any clues that might help you out. Note BTW that my e-mail address has changed. 

Cheers, 
Yellow Claw.

